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Joined: Dec 25, 2007 Posts: 736 Location: Back home in Nashville.
is an absolute fucking nightmare. I seem to be having the best results so far with the bomfactory bundles protools plugin. How do you guys give a distorted guitar a really strong mid presence in a mix without it dominating other frequencies? I am using high and low passes but it just fucks with the tone and sounds completely different to the sound I wanted to record in the first place. it's pissing me off, my clean/crunch guitars are sounding really nice but my high gain sounds are sucking hard.
I'm not really talking about mesa/5150 type sounds either, I'm mainly using a matchless DC-30, a genz benz black pearl and various vintage fenders through either a 2x12 bandmaster with vintage 30s, and a marshall 4x12 with greenbacks. Mic'ed with an sm57. Believe me, I have tried every combinationi and the tones by themselves are massive but they fail in a band mix. any tips??? I heard about some waves c4 setting patch on andy sneap's forum that's supposed to work wonders for this but i recently switched to pro tools and don't have the sodding program anymore. Arse. Apart from the protools bundled shit I don't have much else so i'm limited to basic compressors (smack, bombfactory etc).
thanks! make sure to show me your examples too if you don't mind.
<3 Black Pearls, one of the most underrated amps of the last decade.
As for mixing high gain guitars, i think its all about trial and error. most guitar sounds are very different so its just a matter of trying some shit and seeing if it'll stick.
On our latest stuff theres no post recording EQ at all, we used a Mesa Tremoverb, Soldano Avenger and a Diamond Spitfire II through a framus v30 loaded 4x12. The signal was captured with a couple of sm57, one straight one angled accross the speaker to grab the impulse of the cab. Its then fed through the avalon compressor that we have and then through our analogue desk (although no extra EQ was added). What you hear on the latest recordings is essential a raw sound, i always find the less you have to treat a sound the better it'll be.
We use the Eleven plug in for solo stuff, because a digital guitar signal is easier to manipulate, you need that to make the notes cut through, especially when you've laid down all your rhythm parts on high end valve gear.
Joined: Dec 25, 2007 Posts: 736 Location: Back home in Nashville.
yeah those tones are sick and tighter than a muff, I have no outboard compressors (yet). What is the benefit of using two sm57s? also do you have to invert the phase or do something like that to it?
I guess I just need to experiment with placement a little more. Actually the best high-gain results have been from the eleven rack (and eleven plugin) but they are so limited to generic amp sounds and it is difficult to really find my own tone.
Here's some recent demos, myspace is raping the high end as per usual but it should give you a rough idea of the guitar tone. the tones on the first track sound awesome to my ears, but it's the second one I have been having trouble with because there's more gain on the amps and it's just colliding horribly with the cymbals and the bass guitar in the mix. I know it isn't a general mix problem because the tones just sound kinda shitty even when solo'd
yeah those tones are sick and tighter than a muff, I have no outboard compressors (yet). What is the benefit of using two sm57s? also do you have to invert the phase or do something like that to it?
I guess I just need to experiment with placement a little more. Actually the best high-gain results have been from the eleven rack (and eleven plugin) but they are so limited to generic amp sounds and it is difficult to really find my own tone.
Here's some recent demos, myspace is raping the high end as per usual but it should give you a rough idea of the guitar tone. the tones on the first track sound awesome to my ears, but it's the second one I have been having trouble with because there's more gain on the amps and it's just colliding horribly with the cymbals and the bass guitar in the mix. I know it isn't a general mix problem because the tones just sound kinda shitty even when solo'd
using one mic straight and one mic at an angle (the ends of the mics should almost be touching) you wont get any phasing problems, the angled one is basically picking up the pressure difference and air movement, thats what gives the low end and the clarity. Its worth investing in a decent outboard compressor, it stops the signal getting too wild at the input stage and will give you a more dynamic signal to mix with.
With something like the eleven plugin, the best thing to do is set up a basic sound, then tweak it with another EQ and compressor, you'll find it easier to get a sound with a bit more personality that way.
Joined: Dec 25, 2007 Posts: 736 Location: Back home in Nashville.
badass, gonna try it today on the marshall 4x12/black pearl combo.
gonna get a compressor soon I think, you had any experience with any low to mid priced general purpose comps? i'm thinking about the avalon, they seem to work so nicely on bass too.
that pointy guitar in the video is completely absurd by the way.
badass, gonna try it today on the marshall 4x12/black pearl combo.
gonna get a compressor soon I think, you had any experience with any low to mid priced general purpose comps? i'm thinking about the avalon, they seem to work so nicely on bass too.
that pointy guitar in the video is completely absurd by the way.
Focusrite and TLA also do some good ones, i frequently use the ivory series TLA's, they're pretty transparent and can be had mega cheap.
Yeah Ben has all manner of weird pointy 80's shred machines, that BC Rich Ironbird is probably the most stupid though. For the recording he used his Kramer Jersey Star (sambora sig), but he's changed out the bridge pickup to one of the Dean Matt Heafy humbuckers, its actually a bloody good sounding guitar, but it does look horrible!
Nope, its a standard fender spalted maple custom. Set neck, seymours, wide frets. Its not bad, i'm going to put a p90 at the neck and change out the tuners and saddles.
Joined: Dec 20, 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Northern Exile
timmysoft wrote:
Its worth investing in a decent outboard compressor, it stops the signal getting too wild at the input stage and will give you a more dynamic signal to mix with.
How is compressing a signal going to give more dynamics?
Try this:
Slipperman's Guide To Recording Distorted Guitars From Hell
Joined: Apr 19, 2005 Posts: 5794 Location: At the bottom of the garden, amongst the birds and the bees
red_riviera wrote:
Try this:
Slipperman's Guide To Recording Distorted Guitars From Hell...
Very long, very detailed, very funny!
And doesn't really tell you anything you can't find in shorter, easier to follow guides.
Sol - if you do even want it, I've got the "Sneap C4" preset. It's ridiculous though, people think it's a total cureall when in fact it's just a touch of multiband compression on the low-mids. If your tone is okay in the first place, you shouldn't really need it. It's basically meant to tame those slightly woofy palm-mutes you get sometimes that really swell and stick out on the recording.
Like Timmy said, the 2 SM57 approach (which gets called the "Fredman technique" on the Sneap forums because someone saw photos of him doing it, even though Bob Rock was doing it many years before) doesn't cause pahse issues because to all intents and purposes the diaphragms of the mics are virtually in the same place. They're too close to cause major issues in the lows/mids, and the phase cancellation in the high end is part of what makes it sound good - it tends to remove some of the fizz. Getting it right can be a pain though, as it's really sensitive to placement - far more so than using one mic, as moving one even a few millmetres completely changes the phase relationship and can radically alter the sound. Generally the best way to do it is point one straight (on-axis) at the edge of the dust cap, about an inch off the grille. Then place the second one at 45 degrees to it (off-axis) with the capsules almost touching (if they do touch, you could have vibration issues, so as close as possible but NOT touching). Then stick your headphones on, get someone to play through the cab and move both mics slowly together to find the best spot. Personally I prefer having the angled mic on the inside, pointing out towards the edge of the speaker; some people like it pointing in towards the dustcap. Once you've recorded both, make sure you listen with them in phase, then out of phase - one combination will probably sound thin and nasal, one will sound big and crisp.
High- and low-passing is a must really - it gets rid of all the useless subs (guitar drivers only really work down to around 50Hz anyway), and removes a lot of the fizz and hiss inherent with high-gain. The high pass should be around 50-70Hz, though some people will go as high as 100 (especially if the amp has a loose low-end). Don't worry too much about the guitars sounding a touch thin on their own, in the mix the bass will fill in the gap and having less low-end on the guitars will make the mids the focus. Low-pass should be around 11khz - again, some people will go as low as 10kHz.
I NEVER compress distorted guitars - multiband occasionally, but only if a certain range needs taming. I never do it full range though. Distortion IS compression; adding more doesn't really achieve anything. If you really must though, keep it gentle - guitars sound heavier when they're lively and dynamic, and it helps the music groove better to. Palm-muting especially sounds a lot better when you can hear the accents.
You didn't say how you were recording, but personally I tend to quad-track everything - two track hard left and right, then double them, switch their sides and pan them 80%-ish right and left. Make the inside tracks about 4dB quieter. You need to be really tight, but it makes everything sound so much thicker it's untrue.
EQ is probably the most important thing after mic placement. You can make huge changes in the sound if you want/need to. There are several key frequencies with guitars, you only need to change them a bit and it can really change the tone. It's often better to EQ with the full mix playing, so you can see how you're affecting them in context (they might end up sounding awful on their own, but if they work in the mix it doesn't matter). The frequencies to play with are normally 50Hz (cut), 100Hz, 150Hz, 250Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz (cut), 1.5kHz, 2kHz, 5kHz and 9kHz (though they obviously move slightly for every setup). The most important for me are 400Hz, 1.5kHz and 9kHz - most books would tell you not to touch them as they sound boxy, nasal and hissy respectively, but I an article by Colin Richardson saying he always went to those spots first and he's bang on. Afet low-passing, adding a tiny notch around 9kHz can add back some high-end and make things sound much brighter and more defined. Normally people say 2kHz for the attack, but 1.5kHz tends to sound more natural to my ears. And 400Hz is where a lot of the chunk sits - if your gain is a bit low, adding a little bit there can give them some growl. It's worth trying to find if your setup has any nasty resonances too - my piece o' shit cab whines at 3.2kHz, if I don't sort that out it's really horrible to listen to.
Another thing worth noting is that recorded guitars need less gain than live ones - with a mic right on the speaker cone, you can hear things far better than over a full band at the back of a venue. Set the amp like you would normally, then turn the gain down a touch, record it like that and see what you think. If you're multi-tracking guitars, you definitely need to reduce tha gain, or things get really messy. If less gain means your pinch harmonics are screaming quite the same etc., just overdub them afterwards.
I'm probably missing stuff, but I'm typing on my mum's computer and it's all very confusing If I think of anything else I'll add it up. Mic placement is the key though - play with it for as long as it tkaes to get it sounding right. Put on a good pair of closed headphones, get someone to play through the amp, listen to the mic through the headphones and move it around until it's as good as it gets.
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If I think of anything else I'll add it up. Mic placement is the key though - play with it for as long as it tkaes to get it sounding right. Put on a good pair of closed headphones, get someone to play through the amp, listen to the mic through the headphones and move it around until it's as good as it gets.
